Market America Questions
Sorry to disappoint you all, but the Market America legal team has contacted me and asked me to remove this post. Since I don’t really care much for MA, I am going to do so, simply because it is not worth my time. Apparently they didn’t like that I was in the top 10 on Google for “Market America”. The irony of it is most of my ranking was due to clicks and comments from MA franchise owners.
In my opinion, here is a summary of my post and the comments (completely watered down): Some people have had bad experiences with MA, including me (note, I never joined MA, I just listened to one presentation and that was enough for me.) Others think it is just fine and have made money at it. One thing is for sure, the corporate MA entity has made a lot of money off of the “unfranchise” business model (the irony here, of course, is that corporate MA is just like any other corporation, complete with “Associate General Counsel” threatening to sue.)
I will leave you all with these thoughts: Please, please, please make sure you know what you are doing before signing up for any business. Read the fine print. Do your homework. NO business is without risk, even if they say it is, as MA does here. None. Nunca. Zip. Nada. Get the picture? So, if someone tells you otherwise, red flags should go up. I’m not saying don’t join or anything like that, just saying do your homework first and know what you are getting into. And this goes for all “opportunities”, if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is. Just know that there are plenty of ways to make money in this country that are legal and safe and they don’t have to involve your friends and family or things that are too complex for you to understand.
DISCLAIMER: Any comments that follow are the OPINIONS of that particular author and do not necessarily reflect my views. Furthermore, I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the statements, good or bad, so, just because it appears on a website does not make it fact.
September 10th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
To become successful in Market America UnFranchise Business,is to retailing,leveraging and duplicating the UnFranchise System.Listen and understand the Basic 5 cds (1-8),attends the NMTSS and the big events of MA just only every 3 times per year.
For me,I don’t think that Market America is a scam business or some people think that this is a pyramid scheme like other mlm companies does.
In Market America,we don’t make money by recruiting people.We make money by retailing the millions of products to the customers.Because,that’s the way the Independent Distributors will earn the BVs and IBVs,not only individual making money,IS EVERYONE MAKING MONEY TOO!
The market america products are highest on demand but is so worth to pay for.Because,their products are proven,effective,high quality and no others can duplicate the market america products.Market America is a private product brokerage company and internet marketing.They are similar to QVC and Amazon.com but is powered and engineered by the people.
Also,think about the Market America web-portal,will you?The marketamerica.com is like you own the giant shopping mall in your area (mall without walls).The customers can easily order the products from there and not only that, It’s so easy to shop and it’s more convenience while the customers is shopping from home with Market America web portal.The mall talk catalog is our part of the One to One marketing.And those products in the catalogs,the company don’t make those things.They buy those products and distributed to the Unfranchise Owners customers.
I would say,the only risk about Market America UnFranchise Business model,is the REJECTION.But people can deal with.Think about Donald Trump,Bill Gates and other entrepreneurs who had dealt with the rejections.But they could handle the rejections.Look at them now,they are billionare entrepreneurs.They never listened to those fools who used to brainwash them that they can’t make it.But see,imagine that!
Unlike us,we are average people that can only afford minimal cost of franchise business with a proven business model and provide very good products to the consumers.Other business out there are so expensive to open up a small business and requires more money and too much hard work and then, stuck in the business and otherwise,ending up bankruptcy in today,tomorrow,next week,next month,next year or years later.
Also,one more thing.I think I can compare MARKET AMERICA to Health Insurance companies out there that I think they are most rip off and they can only treat the sickness people.But they can treat the wellness revolution!The only thing they know is exercise and eat right!
September 15th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Your right! A lot of us have made a decent living with MA. Since 1997.
http://www.944.com/articles/6109
September 16th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
No one I’ve ever heard of from MA has ever said to involve your family and friends. Everyone I know in MA has discouraged anyone from talking to friends and family. Your upset and I understand that, but you saw one presentation, maybe it was a bad one I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. You didn’t ever try this business or even do what they described to me as a “trial run” (trying the business without any money out of pocket). From what understand, MA distributors are very picky about who they let into the system, probably because they only need to personally sponsor 2 people, not 50. so it makes sense to me that it’s not right for everyone and like every business, there are going to be business expenses. I know that from personal experience. It’s a business from what I saw, not a wholesale buying club like Quixtar or reliv.
September 17th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Except for the fact that for the large majority of people, 2 people downstream is not enough to meet their monthly quota, hence the need to recruit more and more in order to meet sell enough. Hence, in my opinion, fair or not, the accusations of MLM.
September 18th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Grant,
You are mistaken and, if you took the time to educate yourself you would know that the business model is not just based on building a downline. It’s based on have a small set (10 - 15) of good customers. Good customers basically order about $45 or more of product from you a month. Then, you teach other people to do the same. They need to get their customers and we help them do that. You see, when you take the time to really learn you will find out this is very, very, different. If you want to compare it to MLM fine. But how many MLM companies REQUIRE you to get customers? Market America does because it is the customer that drives the business, not a giant downline. In fact, if I have 10 good customers and I find 2 people who each have 10 good customers and they each find 2 people who each have 10 customers, that’s actually worth $300/month in commission. Not including the retail profit. It’s called base 10 7 Strong. 7 people (you only found 2) each with 10 customers. Want to make more? You can do it one or 2 ways. Have everyone find more customers or expand your downline. Any way you slice it, it’s pretty simple. IF you take the time to educate yourself and understand it.
September 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
First off, I didn’t say it was MLM, just saying that’s where the accusations come from. I never said they are doing anything illegal or anything like that. Just saying people need to read the fine print about the requirements.
Basically, though, if I get 2 (or 10) customers, and each of those get two customers and so on, doesn’t that start to sound like a pyramid? You are right, it is simple: all I need to do is recruit people to sell more product. The thing is, how many of your customers are NOT unfranchise owners themselves?
2
/ \
2 2
/ \ / \
2 2 2 2
Familiar shape?
September 19th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Sorry to butt in but what’s wrong with MLM? MLM’s completely legit in the US and other parts of the world. What’s illegal is the pyramid scheme which focuses more on building a downline of recruits than selling the company’s products.
September 19th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Um, aren’t they the same? The problem with pyramid and MLM is if you are on the bottom, you usually are left spending money and not making any.
My only point here is, and I would tell anyone going into business (or buying a business, or stock) this, you have to ask questions and verify the results. Ask to see income taxes, corporate annual reports, etc. Just like you would do when buying stocks, acquiring a company, etc. It is called due diligence.
In my meeting, these two particular owners could not answer basic questions like:
1. How much money did you make last month?
2. How much did you make last year?
3. How much product did you sell last (fill in the blank)?
4. How many people are in your “downline”?
5. How much of your own product did you buy?
If someone who wants you to cast your lot with them and can’t or won’t answer these kinds of questions, while at the same time telling you how great things are, you should be very skeptical. I don’t think this is unreasonable.
Lastly, read the fine print. Make sure you know if there are quotas and what happens to any unpurchased product and what happens if you don’t meet your quotas (if there are any)
September 19th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
I have looked at many companies and have started and been successful at several businesses and investments. Market America is the only residual income I have ever established with extremely minimal investment of time or money. If you want to live scams, disappointments, extreme expenses with little or no return, go get a job or brick and morter business. Pay all those taxes, and hire ungrateful employees who will be disloyal and quit if the going gets a little ruff. Once you have some “real world” being in business experience,then take a real look at MA. The opportunity is great and risk is small. If you can make it in MA, you can’t make it doing ANYTHING else. Any negative comments come from people who have never been in business for themselves and are looking through rose colored glasses when it comes to being in business for real. If you haven’t ever been there, theory is worthless.
September 19th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
P.S. I misspelled a line. “If you CAN’T make it in MA, you can’t make it in ANYTHING else either.” Sorry for the misspelling
September 19th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
The Emperor has no clothes.
My favorite line, as always: “the risk is small”. Yet anyone who saw the comments on this post that have since been deleted because of legal threats you will know that nothing is without risk and that plenty of people would argue otherwise. Going into business for yourself is never a small risk. I don’t care if it is MA or the latest, greatest franchise.
By all means, if you feel you can establish a good downstream, then go for it, just don’t act like it is without risk.
September 19th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Hi Grant -
You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, and I give you credit for taking the time for this blog. I’m sorry to hear that you were asked to pull stuff down from your site. I’ve had similar circumstances with MA’s Compliance Dept. myself.
I’m curious to know what home-based businesses you might recommend.
You wrote the following:
Basically, though, if I get 2 (or 10) customers, and each of those get two customers and so on, doesn’t that start to sound like a pyramid? You are right, it is simple: all I need to do is recruit people to sell more product. The thing is, how many of your customers are NOT unfranchise owners themselves?
2
/ \
2 2
/ \ / \
2 2 2 2
Familiar shape?
I think it’s a familiar shape because it looks like just about every business in the US, although I’m not sure what the 2s exactly mean. I do know that MA’s structure looks something like this, but without the 2s. There would only be 1 person in each of those spaces. Is there another corporate structure that you think would be worth examining? I’m always looking for something new and improved. (I’m being sincere, not sarcastic, btw).
The other thing that is probably worth mentioning is that I started my MA business about a year and a half ago, and I didn’t really spend much time recruiting until the past 4 weeks with the ‘fast track’ (a story for another day). I pretty much built my business on retailing product from my website — not face to face like many others do. I have 150 customers. None of them are unfranchise owners, and I won’t try to recruit any one of them either. They know our products because they use them, they used them long before they found me on the web, and if they want to start their own business, they don’t need a push from me.
I feel bad that you had a negative experience. If you had met with someone who wasn’t so stupidly secretive, you’d probably have seen the potential with MA. I don’t know why a lot of people in network marketing/MLMs are so secretive, but it’s really unnecessary. They are what they are, and if there’s something to hide, it’s going to come out eventually. I was actually tricked myself today into sitting through a sales pitch for Goji Juice. Why the person couldn’t just tell me ahead of time what he wanted to talk about, I just don’t know. His intention was to convert me from a MA business to a Goji Juice business. Not smart since I sell websites, not juice.
The bottom line with MA is that pretty much every successful business has either a product or service to sell. For some who want to have their own busines, they need help finding a product or service that is 1) saleable and 2) will remain saleable and not negatively impact their business if becomes non-saleable. Because there are so many MA products to choose from, there are many different things people can sell successfully.
Market America gives people a chance to start a business without having to sink tons of money into it. There really is no financial risk. I guess the biggest risk would be losing the time it took to evaluate the business for oneself. No one has to buy anything before it’s already sold, even to start up. They can if they want to, but it’s not a requirement. That’s where our trial run progam comes into play. A new distributor or someone on a trial run can take an order for products, collect the $$ for the retail cost, purchase the products for wholesale $$ from the company or another distributor, and then deliver them. There is no money out of the seller’s pocket. The profit will go toward their $99.95 start up cost and the BV generated can go toward their 200BV initial start-up requirement.
If that new distributor happens to be considering starting in our website business and sells a website, their retail profit will cover their and 20 other people’s start up costs. Retail profit on our website product is normally anywhere from $1500 to $2000, and we don’t even have to close the sales ourselves — MA closes them for us. There are not many businesses that provide such a lofty option — $1500 - $2000 for making an appointment. Do 1 or 2 of those a week, and who cares about an upline or a downline?!
My Market America business is a very part-time business, and I have no problem telling people what I made/make. I worked on and off month to month, and I usually worked about 10 hours a week when I did work. Most new businesses make nothing for the first several years, in fact they lose money with start up costs, overhead, etc. Most new businesses need you to work 60 hours a week or more to keep it going. Also, most new businesses don’t survive the first couple of years — they usually go out of business either year 1 or year 2. Here is what I made/make:
1. How much money did you make last month? Appr. $1200.00
2. How much did you make last year? $2500 in retail profit, $9500 in commissions + website sales. (not a lot, but I hardly worked)
3. How much product did you sell last … I usually average between $1000 and $1200 in retail sales per month (not counting websites). I strive for a 20-25% profit margin whenever I can.
4. How many people are in your “downline”? 6 total. I sponsored 2 last year, 2 this year, and someone in my ‘upline’ (who I don’t know) placed 2 people below me to my ‘downline’. It’s nice to have people downline because you get 100% of their commissions.
5. How much of your own product did you buy? None. I only buy what I need to fill my customer’s orders. 99% of my business other than website sales is done on-line, by the way. My ‘required’ purchase (known as transfer buy), consists of 4 large bottles of OPC-3, some Mochatonix, and some Transitions meals. I sell all of them within 2 weeks or less.
Anyhow, I wish you the best in your quest for the ideal business. There’s something out there for everyone — you just need to find it and try it. Forget those 2 bozos that talked to you about MA. Just because they didn’t or couldn’t succeed, doesn’t me you can’t succeed yourself. If/when you find the right thing fo you, I’d love to hear about it, and I’d love to be your first recruit
September 20th, 2007 at 8:18 am
This is probably the first really intelligent reply I have seen on the subject.
And I think MA would be wise to market themselves more as a side business than a “little to no risk” way of changing your life.
Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck. If you want to do MA, by all means, don’t let me stop you. I am just saying make sure you know what is required of you, JUST AS YOU WOULD IN ANY BUSINESS VENTURE.
I think the big problem is people don’t ask hard questions and demand answers. They get blinded by the promises of riches and “little to no risk”
September 20th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Hi Grant, I just wanted to say thanks for both posts, and I’m glad I came across this one before the thread was closed.
When I was first approached about Market America, I did a lot of research, but I wasn’t able to find much online as far as discussions or people writing about their specific experiences. I’m an Engineer, so it’s all about the numbers and details for me. I think that, however inadvertantly, you really kicked off a good debate. I hadn’t gotten into Blogging before, but this inspired me to start a blog exactly for this purpose (hopefully I don’t get threated with a law suit next :-).
So, I decided I’d give Market America a try, but I’m going to be documenting my experiences as I go and looking to gather those of others as well. Good, bad, and ugly, I want to hear it all. And what can I say? The engineer in me loves a good experiment.
So, if you or anyone else who’s become intested in this debate would like to continue, here’s the address: http://morebv.blogspot.com. Thanks again.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Allyssa,
I would love to participate on your blog! But the link does not work!!
Here are some links I found!
Media Blitz
http://www.944.com/articles/6109
Shopping Made Easy!
REALIZE YOUR DREAMS; REACH YOUR GOALS!
http://www.marketamerica.com/success4utoo
NBC NEWS 10 Work at Home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5XZfQ3KPMU
September 20th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Grant,
You sound fairly intelligent. What is your normal JOB?
Is there any Risk going to work and back. Is there any risk that you go to sleep today and not wake up tomorrow? I am not trying to be sarcastic, but make a point that most mature adults realize that there are risk in everything we do. Even walking across the street.
Unfortunately, some of us just do it anyway, because the good outweighs the risk. Compared to starting up a brick and mortar business with much more headaches and so much risk you could lose your shirt and drawers.It makes much more since to start an UnFranchise than starting a brick and mortar business.
Even getting married has it’s risk. Are you married??What about the risk of having children! I think by now, you get the point. Life is not without RISK! But hey, the ones that take no risk are usually the ones complaining about them!
I know your not one to complain.
Probally the only reason someone ask you to take down your site was the same reason you do not understand Risk!
Really! DO YOU HOMEWORK! RUN THE NUMBERS! SHOW ME HOW THIS MARKET AMERICA WON”T WORK! And I will give you my pacheck for four weeks. Remember, you are intelligent! It still involves WORK!!
September 20th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Yes, I realize life isn’t without risk. Me putting this up is risky, I guess. If you read the comments before (since taken down) you would realize that there are many people who did not do very well because they couldn’t meet their goals, or they ended up buying their own product. I don’t think it was clear to them what they were getting into. I’ve said it every single time, feel free to do MA. I am not trying to stop you. I am just trying to help you think of questions before you get involved based on the presentation I had from two MA associates who I didn’t think were very informative, that’s all. It wasn’t for me, it may be right for you. Like I said, if you sit in on a presentation, don’t be afraid to ask real questions like I outlined above (anyone have others?) and don’t settle for pat answers. Ask to see income tax statements, annual reports, whatever you feel is necessary. I do it every time I buy a stock and pretty much every other risk I have taken in my life, this is no different. It’s called due diligence. If you want to railroad me for offering that advice, then I really have to question your motives.
September 23rd, 2007 at 12:42 am
Grant,
The only reason I’m here is while doing some internet searches and researching for my business, your site popped up (otherwise, I usually do not engage in this).
However, I feel the need to point out the irony here: your repeated responses above after your inaccurate claims are refuted by factual answers from others above is this (per your quoted words):
“My only point here is, and I would tell anyone going into business (or buying a business, or stock) this, you have to ASK QUESTIONS and VERIFY the results. Ask to see income taxes, corporate ANNUAL REPORTS, etc. Just like you would do when buying stocks, acquiring a company, etc. It is called DUE DILIGENCE.”
The irony is the fact that you’re so concerned preaching to all the other people out there on doing their “due diligence” and “verifying the results” on topics, that you yourself are the one actually not following your own advice.
Take a break from this blog tonight, follow your own advice, and read the Market America corporate website where you’ll see that our company VOLUNTARILY publishes an Annual Report by an independent auditing firm (also available in a nice professional full color booklet) which states all income paid out to unfranchise owners and much more. It also states that you must follow the business plan to earn this income (not mentioning a risk-free, easy ride to riches for doing nothing). There is also additional documentation and financials (right in the actual business plan) provided to separate out income between those building MA as a professional business (used as main income, seriously building) and those just choosing to socially build it for a few extra dollars and use the great products/services.
No, it does not mention those that quit because they failed to perform or didn’t research enough to learn that they actually had to build a real business. THEY own their failures, not anyone else or the company plan they didn’t follow. If you ask a failure their thoughts on MA, of course, they’ll pin their inadequacies on others.
(e.g. If you ask the people standing in the welfare line if college worked for them, then of course, they’ll reply with a resounding no. Do you then determine that college doesn’t work based on those selected few? Or do you go to Wall Street, or to the millions of successful CEO’s, stock traders, and small business owners across the country that worked for it…and ask them for the real story on how college worked? That’s where your due diligence is).
I really do feel sorry for you that out of 160,000+ Unfranchise owners out there, in the past you met 1 or 2 people that didn’t fully answer your question and you’re basing that on an entire company’s reputation that’s currently changing an industry.
I agree, it clearly does not seem you are the type of person for MA but at least stay true to your words and get the correct information before you speak. It shows much more credibility when you verify the facts as you said.
Good luck with your stocks Grant.
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:07 am
Dave,
Thanks for the info. When I read the MA site, it clearly says “Little to no risk”. And based on the responses I have gotten from others, I would say it is more than 1 or 2 people who are not giving out answers.
And, OK, I will go read the annual report, just for you. But here’s the difference, I am not even close to thinking of joining MA.
And I agree that the failures are the fault of those who got out because THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE gotten in the first place. Which is exactly my point. All they heard was “riches” and “no risk” when, if they had done their homework and had people telling them it is going to be hard work, they would have thought twice about it.
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 am
I presume you are talking about this financial report, right, Dave? http://mx.unfranchise.com.au/lib/downloads/USA/corporate/AnnualReport.pdf
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:30 am
Unfortunately, it doesn’t say how many Unfranchise owners there are. I have seen estimates that is between 100,000 and 150,000. Could someone correct me?
So, it says in 2006, $79 million was paid out to UnFranchise Owners, (more or less) correct?
So, taking the conservative 100K owners, that is
$79,000,000 / 100,000 = $790 per owner?
Is my math correct, Dave?
Even being really generous, saying there is only 50K owners, that puts the payout at: $1,580 per owner, correct?
So, given the claims by some of the earlier proponents who are making $1200 / month, that means there is even less paid out to the other owners.
Please feel free to correct my math. I may have misread the Annual Report provided in the previous link.
September 23rd, 2007 at 7:30 am
and by the way, those numbers in the last post are PER YEAR.
September 24th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I’ve read numerous articles debating on wheteher or not Market America is a “scam”, “Pyramid scheme”, or “Multi-Level Marketing” system. I’ve also read the MA Annual Report and all the product literature. I can only report that a family member of mine has been working as a MA Unfranchise Owner for a little over a year. Not one to do things half-baked, he attends conferences, meetings, and seminars galore. Stacks of publictions, research, and even tests accompany him wherever he goes. He gives health seminars and sells people “solutions” to their health problems (he has over 30 people in his “binomial” business group). But when I ask him how much he actually earns….he admits that after all of these costs (he even cuts down on expenses by staying at other MA members houses or sharing hotel rooms with multiple people), he doesn’t really make a significant amount of money (factoring all the other costs, I know he loses money- he insists that it is an investment). Instead, he has maxed his credit cards out, works tons of off-beat hours, and insists that he will be a millionaire in a few years. Well, for his sake, I hope so. I tell him that if he isn’t that it is a reflection of the company, not his efforts. I am, however, saddened that MA seems to appeal to and profit from the hopes of people who can hardly afford to “hang in there’ and work for MA, without any basic guarantees (how about some health insurance guys!), for at least 2-3 years. Sadly, my brother has no retirement savings, no health insurance, and if he doesn’t “succeed” at MA…what then? As an “un-Franchise Owner” he has no legal recourse either. In his former life, he held a steady job with benefits…not glamorous,and it certainly couldn’t compete with MA’s sales pitch. It saddens me to see him so excited and being given so many accolades for what a great job he is doing…but not actually earning any money. And he’s not lazy. Last night he showed me this year’s annual MA report (again). Well, right there in the fine print at the bottom of the page it stated clearly that more than 65% of MA people (even excluding 1st year people like my brother) do NOT make more than 30k per year and only 14% earn between 40-65k…and less than 2-4% make six figures per year (the other percentages were for other income brackets like 10k/year and less than 3k/year). Not very equally distributed if you ask me. My brother, hey, he’s an adult and can make his own choices. But as a family member it’s hard to sit by and watch my brothet get taken advantage of. I hope I can eat these words in 1-3 years when he’s a millionaire, I really do. I would never dissaude someone for taking a chance, following their dream, and working hard to achieve their goals.MA is certainly not for “anyone” and it is a decision. I don’t feel sorry for people who fail after making clear, informed business decisons..it’s a risk. I do, however, feel sorry for people who are vulnerable (financially, emotionally, and even educationally)and are taken advantage of.
September 24th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Btw, I need to amend my calculations earlier, if you count commission, plus retail profit, you get:
$79M + $84M = $163M
Then, $163M / 100,000 = $1,630 per year. Half the owners, double the payment up to $3,260 per owner per year. Now, that isn’t chump change by any means, but it isn’t exactly the path to riches either.
Here’s another curious line item on the Annual Report:
Yachts = $22,117,388
Would those be the Yachts available to all Unfranchise owners for doing offshore transactions or entertaining guests?
Notice, by the way, that there clearly was a purchase of a Yacht (or multiple yachts) in 2005, because the category was only $3.6M in 2004.
September 27th, 2007 at 9:56 am
MA was introduced to me as a business opportunity by my MD after first encouraging me to purchase the OPC3 product (as well as some others). I’m sure she’s doing quite well in selling health/nutrition supplements since she’s an MD and has a captive audience. Most people are going to take their doctors advice!
When going over the business presentation, although I think she sincerely believes it is achievable, the main selling point was making a 6 figure income in 2 years. It did sound too good to be true. Do I think it’s a big investment? No. Is it risky? Naturally. The point is, I’m glad that I found your site. I was actually looking to find out the dollar value of a “BV” (i.e., how much would I really be required to buy myself and sell to others each month). If someone could tell me that, I would appreciate it. I’m doubtful that I can get 10-15 steady customers a month. I don’t want to pressure my family and friends. I haven’t read their marketing program yet, but I’ve tried and failed at internet marketing before; so, I don’t have any false hope of gaining customers via the web. You’ve already shed a lot of light on MA for me. If someone would just answer my basic question (monthly sales required in dollars), I’d be very appreciate. And….why is it that the details of the Market America opportunity are not on the web portals?
After my meeting last night with my MD, I told her that I wanted to check it out further and would get back to her. Unfortunately, though, my searches didn’t come up with much useful information (except for this site).
September 27th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Very interesting, especially the numbers laid out by Stephanie and Grant. I would also like to know the answers to Janet’s questions. On the legal side, the lawsuits identified at http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr16131a.htm and http://www.globalcomputing.com/MarketAmerica.htm make me a little edgy. Granted, all corporations are targets for lawsuits, but the first one appears shady at best and the second one vindictive. If the top people aren’t on the up and up I have hard time buying into a program (Although how different are they from corporate america?)
On the surface it appears the Market America results could be summed up as “get in early and you make money, get in late all bets are off”. Hats off to those who can make a go at it or are using it for supplemental income. I wish you the best. I would, however, be interested in knowing how many of the 14 to 16% that earn over 40k are the ones who got in early or first introduced it into their area vs the late comers. Lastly, I have to wonder just how overpriced the products are if everyone in the upline gets commission on them and what exactly that commission percentage is.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Yeah, I don’t know anything about the lawsuits, but you are right, all corporations are subject to lawsuits (and individuals, for that matter), so that shouldn’t reflect badly on MA.
Likewise, with MA, I don’t know about getting in early or not. I think the pro MA posts here are from the people who are doing well (i.e. in the 2-10%) and you don’t really hear much from those who aren’t doing as well (or are doing OK.) I guess I would like to hear from some of those. When did you get in, how long have you been at it, etc?
I should also add some more questions I would recommend people ask of their recruiters:
1. How much did you spend on MA product?
2. How much PROFIT did you make? i.e. Revenue - Expenses, etc.
3. How many hours did you work to make that profit?
September 29th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Hey Grant,
Another slow, relaxing night so I thought I’d check in for some entertainment. I do have to say I’m impressed you glanced at the MA Annual Report so I will give you a “kudo” for at least attempting to stick to your words. The 2006 report is even better when it gets on the website.
As for your above calculations - sorry, not accurate. You can’t compare apples to oranges - As I said, all people are not building the same way and some are not building at all, just using the producst as customers basically so you can’t count them as actively following the plan and claim it’s not working. If your stock broker didn’t show up for work for a month and your investment income hit the floor, would you blame the company’s plan for not producing? Your calculation assumes all people are full time building MA and as I said, some are just using the products and not choosing to actively expand and build the business for a larger income as others are. So you can’t come up with an average income by dividing total commissions paid out by number of unfranchise owners. You said you reviewed annual reports for your stock companies so I’m sure you don’t apply that logic to those companies — and you can’t here either.
Additionally, you need to understand that these incomes that are mentioned are RESIDUAL and compounding which means they have a leveraged value that far exceeds what most people associate as their linear income through paychecks. (Even those making $1,000/month in MA RESIDUAL income from part time hours, this is NOT the same face value as a one time paycheck for $1,000 at a job - there, you have to go back to work and create more work / more hours to get another check next month if possible - but if you’ve followed the plan and built properly, the MA $1,000 income will repeat next month, and the next, and so forth, even if you put less hours in.
The yacht comment, yes we as general Unfranchise owners have access to the yacht for high level trainings. What’s wrong with a company having a yacht? I hope you also question your big investment companies’ execs in this same way..they’re spending all your account management fees you continue to pay them enjoying their big mansions, yachts, and vacations in the carribean? We even meet with the CEO of the company and train face to face at their home and on the yacht. Have you had dinner with any of your investment company CEO’s yet? Additionally, all MA company money is factored back and invested into our businesses through the system and solidifying the company further for life-long income for all of us - you won’t understand this so don’t try, it will only waste both our time.
Also understand that there are thousands of extremely intelligent people that are Unfranchise owners and no one is being taken for a ride, especially when the checks are coming in and the proof is in the payout for those that follow the plan.
As for closure on your “little risk” concern, it is a business and therefore the risk is in trusting yourself and your action. It is little risk since the bottom line is a very small startup requirement compared to any traditional business or store costing $500k - over $1mil+ (that’s risk), MA startup is mostly of products you’re using already so you’ve lost nothing but gained the ability to create a significant income of 6 figures OR just an average income if you choose at $50k RESIDUAL per year - the individuals choice. By the way, this is a 2-3 year plan or even if customized to 5-6 year plan if you choose, it depends on what the person wants and how fast they want it. They need to follow the plan.
And finally, it’s not a get in early deal. This concept is explained specifically in the first business overview of the plan. Due to capping of those that started earlier, they are not gaining all the money and taking it from the new people, but sharing the credit with the new people to ensure their success. The excess cashflow that was not paid to those earlier partners(that they were capped on) was shared with those new people they’ve been training to provide equitable distribution to those who deserve it from following the plan. Again, just disproving the incorrect comments above but not worthy of time here or even possible to explain in this forum.
Actually, those that start this business now are able to build income much faster than the earlier owners in some ways due to our growing visbility and credibility in the media, more business building tools, advances in the company and technology, etc.
In closing, above, you mysteriously pulled out a reply to my answers that you were still not going to join MA although I never indicated my desire to convince you. Please don’t misunderstand my answers to your “claims” as me trying to get you to join MA with me as you incorrectly referenced. MA is a professional business where serious business owners are interviewing people for partnership over a period of time, not some quick sign up for just anyone off the street. Respectfully, I’m not interested even if you begged me to offer you a partnership which we know will not happen regardless so we’re all safe.
Ok, time to close discussion. I can’t promise another visit here since fragmented discussions without all parties having an educated view of the entire picture of this company is just fruitless banter.
However, Grant, I wish you luck in the future and hope this chat website and your stocks are providing you an endless stream of residual income as many of our MA Unfranchise owners enjoy
October 1st, 2007 at 8:14 am
I’m doing OK. I know you wanted to hear from someone doing OK. I earn a few hundred dollars a month in commission, about $300-$600. I also make a few hundred in retail, depending on if I sold websites and health and nutrition (or just h&n) in that particular month, retail ranges from $200-2000. When it comes to spending on product…. I only spend money on product that is already sold, or that I am using myself. I spend about $75 a month on health and nutrition products for my son, husband, dog and myself. I also purchase laundry detergent, household cleaners, sprays for odor and diapers, and makeup. But when I purchase these items it also helps to create more bv and build my business. I prefer to buy quality products from myself and earn commission than to buy any-old-product off the shelf at Wal-Mart and help Wal-Mart to make money.
As for the person asking about BV, I do not believe there is an exact calculation, it varies, usually it is about 70%, for instance a $50 product has 45 bv, but again it varies by product.
Another person asked why the plan details are not available online. They are in fact available on the web portals, although some distributors may have opted not to include the plan unless they authorize it–it is their business and that is their choice. But it is available on most, including mine, and I know for a fact that many “comparable” companies do not have plans available online, or do with no explanation which leaves you confused. If you go to a Market America portal and click on “about ma” follow instructions, click a flag, and you have the plan available step by step. In the top left corner there is a circle with TP (talking points) this will outline details on each slide, if you were seeing the plan in person a distributor would discuss and expand on these points. I hope this helps.
When it comes to profit I haven’t been investing in a lot of expenses lately, meetings, trainings, paperwork, etc. But I always use money I’ve earned in MA to purchase these things, and still end up with money in my pocket. I wish I had a clearer calculation for you, but at this time I do not.
I work on Market America maybe 3 hours a week, I should do more, and I KNOW if I did I would make more. I utilize my Market America business from my Yoga Spa so when I build I am building two businesses. This is a full time job, but only part of it can be committed to MA. In my experience owning a Spa is much more risky, time consuming, has more expenses, more overhead, more commitment for less profit than my Market America business. But I am a business owner and I take the good with the bad, I will continue to build both.
My parents are also Market America distributors and they earn, in commission about $600-1200 a month, I’m not sure about retail. The upline I work directly with earns $18,000 a month and her upline, Elizabeth Weber, earns $1.5 million a year, residual and she doesn’t need to keep building to keep earning, she can sit back and relax.
I have examined several other “comparable” companies and read the fine print and haven’t seen anything that was even close to Market America’s opportunity. I know that with Market America you can make more than your upline, so it isn’t a get in first type of scheme.
The products also have the chance to be life changing, I know that my son is 2 and has had a runny nose once, and it happened to be in a two-week period we were out of our OPC-3. Other than that he has never been sick, and he has played with other kids who were sick, been to the Spa and been around several people. I do not get sick. Check this woman out: http://www.wetmtv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=2598@video.wetmtv.com,2559@video.wetmtv.com,2730@video.wetmtv.com,2692@video.wetmtv.com,2623@video.wetmtv.com&navCatId=18&2=2
Thank you for the chance to read and write about what I see as one of the best opportunities available.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:50 am
I would say this puts you in the doing very well for MA camp, not the doing OK camp, based on the averages I calculated based on the MA annual report. At any rate, congrats on your success.
And if Elizabeth is earning 1.5 a year, that just furthers my conclusion that there are a whole ton of unfranchise owners who are making _WAY_ below the average of $1600 a year.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dave, you can slice it however you want and say it is “apples and oranges”, but the fact is, MA paid out $163M in commissions and retail profit to an estimated (your number) 160,000+ owners. You can make excuses for them by saying they are not “building in the same way” (how can that be, I thought they had to follow the plan to succeed?) but the fact remains, for whatever reason, that is how much is paid out, on average. And, my further guess is that 10-20% of the owners are making 80% of that money. That’s just human nature.
And yes, I understand about the Yacht. Your are just hitting my point exactly! MA is a corporation just like any other corporation, except the “employees” (franchise owners) who do all the work don’t get benefits like insurance, etc. They just get a promise of riches, which in reality doesn’t work for the large majority of them (otherwise the numbers would be WAY higher)
October 2nd, 2007 at 9:03 am
And Dave, if it is such a great opportunity, why are, in your words, people “just using the producst as customers basically so you can’t count them as actively following the plan and claim it’s not working”
I mean, come on, this is a little to no risk path to riches, isn’t it? I would have to be stupid to sign up and then not actually follow the plan right? That’s like saying someone laid a pile of gold at your feet and said, “Here, take this, it’s all yours” and you saying, “no thanks, but can I have the pallet that you delivered it on?”
In other words, these people are just buying their own product? Why in the world would they do that? Doesn’t add up Dave.
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Why didn’t dave tell us what the minimum monthly goal is (in dollars)?
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:30 am
Can someone please contact me. I would like to join Market America. Anyone on here that cant see that this is a legitimate business opportunity is about 15 years behind the curve. Affiliate marketing, buzz marketing, one to one marketing is the viable way (and most profitable) of doing business in the 21st century. You cant tell me that ebay, walmart, target, etc., are all part of some evil “pryamid scheme”. It is like everything else, if you work it, you will make money. I have been involved with affiliate marketing for some time and have made some substantial money. If you understand business, leveraging, compounding, you would be doing what I am and wanting to join MA. The negative people on here, with half truths, not even UNDERSTANDING what a pyramid scheme is, make me wonder, WHY? Why would you try and ruin a reputation of a company, or someone (like myself) who is just engaging in free enterprise so I can provide for my family. What are you trying to gain?
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:11 am
I’m not trying to ruin MA. It is a free country and you are free to do as you wish. I just want to make sure people have their eyes open before going in. It’s not for everyone. Some people do very well at it (my guess is it is less than 10%), some do OK at it and some don’t do well. If you look at the averages, I would say most don’t do well. All I am asking people do, is ask questions of the people they contact and do their best to verify it. If you are satisfied with the answers you get, then by all means join. If you aren’t satisfied, then don’t join. Don’t, however, join, just because someone says it’s no risk or promises you will be a millionaire in 2-3 years, because the fact is that very few MA unfranchise owners are, otherwise the commission and retail profit paid out by MA would be in the billions, and the annual report will confirm that.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:36 pm
yep, replying to the previous email. I agree that this business is not for everyone, cause not everyone is willing to
follow the system, or willing to know more about it. They prejudge what they know about MA, and thought they already knew it all. If you really compare those who success and those who failed in this business, is very simple, those who failed by doing their own ways or do little or do nothing, those who success are strictly following the system, and the fact is: it’s for average person, everyone CAN do it, but NOT everyone is willing to do it. I’m making money, and also on the way to help lots of people achieve financial freedom. Like Google, yahoo, Ebay, MA will become the next big ICON on the internet. It’s expanding to Hong Kong this Sept. let time proves this business works !
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Rick (of the Oct 3rd message),
How can one contact you?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Such a cop-out. All you ever have to do is say “they didn’t follow the system” and you have your way out. Does the system tell you what you have to do each and every day, 365 days a year? Or are somethings left for you to figure out? I bet even the ones who really make money don’t follow the system to a tee, so stop using this cop-out.
And I don’t think I am prejudging MA. I think the numbers speak for themselves. Based on the averages, there must be a whole lot of owners out there not following the system (which is so easy to follow!), otherwise the revenue and commissions paid out would be a whole lot higher than $163 million per year for those 100,000-160,000 owners. But wait, why wouldn’t these people be following the business plan? There is little to no risk and it is practically foolproof.
It does bring up another good question to ask yourself when considering MA or other franchises: how good are you at sticking to plans, paying attention to detail, etc? If you feel you truly can execute the “system”, then it is probably a good fit.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
yes, the system does tell you what you need to do step by step, day by day, in order to success, and there’s actually
a basic 5 diagnosis test to help you monitor, adjust, and control your daily, monthly plan of actions.
There is daily check list you need follow, and everyone
can do it, is just the question of doing it or not, doing
it consistently or not. I haven’t seen one person that strictly follow the daily check list for 2-3 year, and not making the residual income. If you know such person, let me know.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I was recently approached to become a “partner” in this “business opportunity.” The FIRST thing that I said was “if it’s not AMWAY.” The pitch was exactly the same as the Amway pitch I received in 1979. Assured that it was not, the pitch went further to include comments such as “geared toward baby boomers” and “vitamins that we are using ourselves.” Firstly, why am I (or anyone else for that matter) going to take health advice, albeit vitamins, from just anyone out there wanting to sell a product? Doesn’t make good common sense, does it? Secondly, why the “mystery” that is so common with these MLM companies? And I will say company rather that scheme, which is what it really is. I challenge anyone to think back on the eighties and talk with the person who introduced them to Amway. Now go back and see how they are doing. My person never made a go of it. Enough of Amway - I’m just making the comparison - which in my view is very comparable. As for checking out MA’s website for valuable (and truthful) information on the company and relying on what you find there for making a decision, I suggest going to any government website and asking you to believe what all you read there. Or better yet, remember ENRON? I doubt that their website had anything negative to say about the company, and what exactly did their finacial’s say at the time? Hmmm? C’mon folks - you can’t really be that gullible? I will say this - the one at home based business that I have seen succeed is Party Lite. At one time I had 6 friends involved in trying to make money at it. Of the six, only one is still involved and has actually made money, but she puts in MANY hours of work per week, besides holding down a “regular” job. I guess I agree with Grant - do what you want, but for pete’s sake, take the blinders off and do a little (or a lot) of homework and realize that you will not be making a boatload of money by working a few hours a week. Use common sense - if it were really that easy, why wouldn’t everyone be doing it? If you could really buy a house by simply only paying off the back taxes, why wouldn’t everyone? If buying and selling stocks by running a program that tells you by red and green indicators when to buy and sell, gosh, why wouldn’t everyone?
October 5th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
MA is a business that provides you a great tool to make money. If you do not know how to use this tool, if you are too lazy to use this tool, if you are looking for bad sides only, you will get what you want - nothing! I love the opportunity the company gives. The problem is people try to create their own wheel when it’s created for them already. The plan is simple, the requirements are not high, the products are wonderful, and money are very good if you do not complicate your life with too many “but”s, digging soil trying to get dirt. Honey attracts flies - not just bees. Everybody wants to have money, BUT not everybody does minimal requirements to make this money. I’ve been in MA for 2 years, and I make good money. And I am amazed - reasonable investments of money (absolutely not a lot) and time (6-10 hours a week) - and I’ve stopped working full time for salary since January 2007. I am at home, with my kids, happy and healthy, can enjoy my hobbies, do not care about crowds in a stinky and noisy subways, late evenings, tiredness, ignorant boss. I travel, have vacations, go when I want and where I want. Good luck to those who only complains! Probably you are useless in any other businesses - just do not want to admit it. Then let’s blame the company, right?
October 5th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Congrats on your success Lena. I love your attitude and you must be very good at following the plan. My only question is, if the plan is so easy, why are all of these people in MA (remember, the average yearly take home based on the commissions and profits paid (excluding expenses) is approximately $1600 based on rough (and conservative numbers) presented above) not following the plan? Why would they do that? And I’m not talking just a few of them (otherwise the averages would be WAY higher) who aren’t doing it. Are these people not positive? I gotta tell you, the guy I met with was as positive as they come. Boy, if they could bottle that and sell it, then you would have something. And yet, he admits he has been at it for over 5 years and made at most $1000 per month, working 10-15 hours per week. The math, for most people, just doesn’t match the marketing. I will say it again, I agree with the positive people here (pro-MA), if you think and believe that you can do it, then godspeed to you, especially if you have asked the questions that need to be asked. I wonder, of the successful people who have joined, how much homework did you do before joining? What things did you look into first? What did you feel you had in your mind/background that would make you successful? Are you the type that won’t take no for an answer (and I mean that in a good way)? Are you especially outgoing or friendly? Do you have a lot of contacts? Do you come across as being honest? Perhaps a list of attributes of the people who are successful will allow others to check them off to see if they honestly feel they have those attributes. I don’t know, just thinking out loud here. My bet is, the attributes of the successful ones are the same attributes of any successful business or salesperson and that all they really did was find the system that they felt comfortable with. It may be MA for you, it may be eBay or Amazon or starting your own company or climbing the corporate ladder.
October 5th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Cynthia, you asked if it was so easy, why wouldnt everyone be doing it? SO I am asking you, why dont you do it? There you will have your answer. I have a friend who buys houses (he was on one of those infomercials) He has a positive cash flow of $5,000 a month. He was telling me how easy it was for him to do this..I asked him the same question, why doesnt everyone do it than? He told me “I dont know, I just told you how to do it, why arent you doing it?” Somebody just showed you how to become financialy independent through Market America and your CHOOSING to throw it away. Why? Because someone on a Blog told you not to? Or are you afraid of success? Or just plain scared? The thing with success cynthia is that you have to breakaway from the pack. This can be very uncomfortable at times because of our conditining: birth, school, work, taxes, death. When you choose to step out of the box it makes others uncomfortable, thats why they attack, make fun, disparage you, they want you to fall back in line. They want you to stay in your little cubicle and be quiet.They want you to ask yourself is this “good for the company?” not is this good for me? A human being who wants to be free. Market America is like any other business, it is not a guarantee of success, it is an opportunity for success. Who ever approached you about MA actually thought enough of you to take time out and share themselves (putting themselves out there) so you can better yourself. Thats the American spirit. At the very least why dont you support them. Shop through there web portal, what will it hurt? You probably shop all there stores anyway. Dont forget, there are people out there (like myself) who would love to have someone share the opportunity with me. I cant even get someone to contact me. So obviously something in the great design of life CHOSE you..twice! So you never, ever, have the option of complaining about money again, or looking at people who are successful, going, WOW! How did they do it! You know.
Rick
October 6th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Hey Grant. Just wanted to add some insite to this lovely debate you are having (I love this stuff).
I had a buddy who was approached by someone representing Market America. My buddy was asked to come to a meeting about a “very little investment” opportunity! Now, I haven’t read the material given to him yet, but it sounded like a company that some friends and I participated in as a school experiment a few years ago.
What “magical” little company I am refering to, is none other than: World Financial Group! Now, I know that MA doesn’t market the same products that WFG/WMA/etc.(always changing their name to avoid the next federal lawsuit) but, the same business model of recruiting your way to the top seems to fit the molds of both MA & WFG.
So, what I would like to do is investigate this company the same way I did with WFG and report about it’s activities on your blog. I would welcome all successful entrepreneurs’ to prove that MA is not another fly by pyramid scheme by showing some hardcore figures and facts from their own experiences, not some figures from the company website. I would also like to hear about the bad outcomes with MA as well.
Oh yeah, BTW, is it not true that the founder of Market America (James H. Ridinger) came from Amway?? Just curious, because the founder of World Financial Group (Hubert Humphrey) also came from this disgraced “company”. The latter also faces multiple federal lawsuits…just food for thought.
October 6th, 2007 at 7:20 am
I believe the founder of MA is from Amway, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. People get second chances.
As for the bad examples, there were plenty on the old post :-). The problem I have with the bad examples at this point is that most of them turn into personal attacks on MA and the executives since the people are pretty mad, which puts me at risk in that manner. I understand why they are mad, but I don’t want to be at risk in that manner (I am not a risk adverse person, I just prefer not to be sued as a general rule). So, I guess I would ask, if you have had a good or bad experience and want to share your personal story, please feel free. Keep it clean, no personal attacks (on MA execs or on me). Just tell us how you got into it, how long you were in, how much you spent, how much you earned, what went right and what went wrong, and, if you got out, why you got out.
Of course, I reserve the right to not approve your comment if I don’t feel it is appropriate according to the guidelines above.
I think the thing that worries me most about all this discussion is I am not telling anyone not to join. I’m just saying ask questions of the representative and seek answers despite the rah, rah stuff and for the most part the pro-MA people come on here and say “you’re just negative, you don’t get it” and provide more rah-rah stuff. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that the only ones who do comment are the ones who have something to protect, namely the ones making a good deal of money off it.
October 6th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Perhaps the issue is it ain’t all it’s cracked up to be, otherwise, given 160,000 or so owners, the MA revenue paid out should be in the billions, not millions.
Geez, if even 20,000 (1/8 of the total # of owners, a measly 12%) of the owners were making $5,000 per month, this would add up to MA having paid out:
$5000 X 12 = $60,000 per year
$60,000 per person X 20,000 owners = $1,200,000,000 per year.
That’s $1.2 billion dollars PAID OUT. That’s a far cry from the $163 million paid out in 2005.
As always, please feel free to correct my math.
October 6th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Grant, I think is is unfair to base your numbers on the amount of reps. Some people join these companies so they can have access to the products at a cheaper cost. In fact, 90% of shaklee distributors in canada are just members who just buy products for themselves (no selling or sponsoring). Amway also makes great products that are in high demand, that people just want to buy. So it isnt accurate to work your numbers based on 160,000. For Mr. youngblood, if you want accurate info go to the DSB (direct seling assoc.) or the BBB (better bus. Bur.) to say that Amway is a disgraced company when they are one of the largest privatley held co. in the world doing 6.2 billion in sales (and very respected) is grossley inacurate. Grant, you are right if you let this conversation get out of control, you CAN be sued for Libel. Be careful.
Rick
October 6th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Ah, very interesting, Rick. So, people aren’t joining to make money, they just want a discount on the product? Fine, so be it. If it is just another buying club (ala Sam’s, BJs or Costco), then sell it as that and not as a realistic opportunity to make money. By the way, are you sure they aren’t buying their own product so that they can meet their quotas? And, please, please, please tell me why it is such a phenomenal opportunity (as has been proclaimed by so many above) that the large majority of people joining do so solely so they can get a discount on the products?
Rick, what numbers shall I use? I thought 20,000 was pretty darn conservative given Dave’s estimate of 160,000 total owners. How’s 10,000? Or 5,000? Are there at least 5,000 active owners out there?
If a mere 10,000 MA owners were making $5,000 per month, the total paid out would be $600 million, right? Half that to a paltry 5,000 owners and the payout would still be $300 million, right? ($60,000 per year X 5,000 owners = $300M)
Yet, it’s not. It is $163 million according to the annual report in 2005. So, if you take that $163M and divide it into our 5,000 (guess) active owners (i.e. those doing this to make a living and not just to get a discount) and you get a whopping average of $32,600 per person. Now, again, $32K per year is nothing to sneeze at (pre-tax, mind you) but it is hardly the path to riches.
At any rate, I tire of this debate. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Also, Rick, I don’t think I have said anything libelous. I am just using the published numbers from the annual report and the estimates of the number of owners from the pro-MA camp. I am not saying don’t join. I am not saying it is a scam or even MLM. I just feel some strange obligation to help people ask questions (why is everyone so afraid of questions?) before joining or not joining. If you get satisfactory answers to those questions and you feel you are the kind of person that can do well at it and have the great energy and attitude of some of the people above, join now and do not hesitate. May your life be full of blessings and rewards.
October 6th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
I totally agree with you about asking questions. You should do this about religion, politics, and any business. Yes, some people join just to buy products for themselves. Most these companies in direct sells offer this option including MA (which I am not affiliated with btw). lIKE i SAID 90% OF SHAKLEE members in Canada join for there own consumption (that is from there own literature) I know this because my wife and I joined so we could by some of the cleaning products after OPRAH WINFREY did a special on them on earth day this last april. We liked the environmentally friendly products and the packaging and bought some. I dont intend to sell or try and recruit anyone into shaklee. So if someone tries to calculate bonuses based on my involvement, they will be wrong. Maybe your a “half glass” type of guy, me, just show me ONE person, just ONE, who makes money in MA and if it worked for them, it could work for me (not anyone)just me. Just to let you know, I dont think you are negative, just more cautious than others, I also dont think you are being libelous. I was just saying be careful on who you let say stuff on here, it could come back to haunt you. I know a lot of companies in the direct sales, like shaklee, amway, etc., take there integrity very seriuosly, and do sue people with blogs of this type. If you keep it very general and open ended, like we are doing, you will be okay, but like you said earlier, once people make it personal…it is naive to think that this Blog isnt being monitored, it is.
Rick
October 8th, 2007 at 12:32 am
I did some research and discovered that over 80 people in Market America make over $1,000,000 per year. Over 3,000 people make over $100,000 per year. I also discovered that the Amway corporation has produced more millionaires than any other industry in the last fifty years INCLUDING real estate. They also own the largest vitamin, health nutrition company in the world (over 2 Billion in sales)10 x larger than any other vitamin company. They produce the #2 energy drink in north america (red bull being #1). I also discovered that Warren Buffet (one of the richest men in the world) Bought and owns a company called PAMPERED CHEF (a MLM)because he thought it was a great company and investment. I also learned that SIR RICHARD BRANSON (worth 6.8 BILLION himself) who owns VIRGIN atlantic, started his own MLM called VIRGIN cosmetics, and now they are the largest COSMETIC firm in the U.K. Also, Amazon.com the largest online retailer (before MA takes over) decided early on to use word of mouth and affiliate marketing (where affiliates refer the company for a percentage)as the primary way to advance there company, finding in two test markets that t.v. ads were inaffective for the amount of money. Also, Donald Trump and Robert Kiosaki both endorse network marketing as a viable way to make money in thier book WHY WE WANT YOU TO BE RICH. Donald Trump being the global spokesperson for the largest Direct seller of telecommunications company. Another interesting fact is that nearly 75% (or close) of Americans have purchased products from Direct selling companies. These companies dont grow in vacuums, someone is making it happen.
Rick
October 8th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I have no problem with network marketing. I am just saying look into it.
As for your claims of 3,000 making $100 K plus (not to mention the 80 making $1M plus), I find that hard to believe given the numbers in the annual report. 3,000 X 100,000 equals $300M paid out.
At any rate, I am closing off comments for this, as it is just a circular argument of pro’s and con’s and is not worth my time. Like I said at the top, do the math, verify claims and then make your own decision based on what you feel is right for you.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
[...] doesn’t jive w/ what I see in analytics. For example, I know I am in the top 10 for “Market America” and “Carowinds” on Google, amongst others and that people are clicking through [...]
August 28th, 2008 at 7:50 am
I’m going to open this back up for 10-15 days to see if there are any new perspectives to be offered.
From a biz standpoint, it seems (http://mx.unfranchise.com.au/lib/downloads/USA/corporate/AnnualReport.pdf) that MA had another banner year (the company itself, that is).
The math from above is pretty much unchanged, with maybe a small uptick for distributors, but most likely not since there are undoubtedly more people involved. That, of course, is the big thing missing from the Annual Report, they don’t tell you how many people they paid commission to. I’ve seen estimates as high as 150,000.
So, in 2006, the report says that roughly $195M was paid out to owners. Sweet! That’s a lot of money. Now, divide that by the number of owners. Sad. It’s only $1300/year (based on 150K owners) on average (I’ll make that much this year on this blog and I guarantee you I work a lot less on it). Cut the owners to 75K and you’re at $2600/year. Still, nothing to write home about.
And remember, the 80/20 rule likely applies here as well. That is, 20% of the owners are making 80% of the profits. In fact, there are testimonials above stating just that. Several claim to make $1M (unverified) plus, which just means the average joe is making even less per year.
September 2nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
So, got an interesting email from an ex-MA employee the other day, and this person made a really interesting point. Namely, if MA is such a great opportunity for John Doe, why would anyone actually work at MA? Seriously, why do they have employees? I get that they have executives who are probably paid in the millions, but why would they have lower paid people? Shouldn’t they all just be unfranchise owners? I suppose one could argue it isn’t for everyone, but still, if you believe enough in the company to join it as an employee, why don’t you have an unfranchise?
September 5th, 2008 at 6:01 am
I donot get it 5000 points = you spending $2500.
Yes I know you break it up from the people you get in.
Willl here is a point that is only IF they purchase. Lets see whne was the last time a business ran of a IF well never.
Outside of this I have check recheck gone in and sign-up even to find out well what you can earn from this and I got nothing no plan just simple min points redeemable is 5000 and you earn 2 point in a dollar. I say so what!!!! I like to know what you get for those points and well answer is ????????????????They didnot say.
The next thing on the hit is where is the unscribe section.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Great string, Grant. I went to luncheon this past Friday, mostly who are bible thumping Christians, and after 5 minutes of meeting a man there, he told me about MA, and wanting me to visit his website. I was in Amway in the early 80’s so I am very skeptical of these type of introductions, because I did a lot of them! Anyway, he gave me the MA product brochure. I’m a teacher by trade and use Wikipedia a lot, so i was surprised not to find an entry for MA! So that’s how I found these posts. Ultimately I feel sorry and sad for this man and his family and the majority of MA participants because I know the long hours, pain, and lost money by all my associates when I was in Amway, and I see the parallel for the majority of MA. Just my 2 cents.
September 17th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
As I read all these comments all i could hear was sour grapes, I was a former business owner with over sixty employees all the headaches and loss of product from my employees ( stealing ) it makes me wander how many of the people writeing these comments have ever owned their own business, and most that mentioned MA is a rip off company or
you cant make any money, those people are usually not successful in Market America, is because they do nothing but expect to get rich, IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT WAY! Anything in life worth having, must be worked for, I have been with MA over six years and have become very successful.
BUT I WORKED FOR IT!
September 17th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
In respones to Grants comment about why MA has employees, and why arent they unfranchise owners, again another one who did not get their facts before shooting off their mouth,
people in the corporate office ARE unfranchise owners,,,,
September 18th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Terry, the person stating this to me, in a private email, was an MA employee. Could they have an ax to grind, sure, but they seemed sincere. I do find it interesting to think about. MA doesn’t actually pay out that much in avg. salary according to their books (spread across 500 employees), so it’s not like the in-the-trenches employees are getting rich like the executives are (it is a corporation just like any other, remember). FWIW, the executives and a select few MA owners seem to be the only ones who are.
As for sour grapes, I don’t have sour grapes, I never joined. I agree with you, people can’t just expect to get rich, it doesn’t just happen that way, which is why MA should stop telling people that it has little to no risk, as they do here: http://www.marketamerica.com/corporate/index.cfm?action=services.wpCorpBiz. It then goes on to say:
“From their first day in the business, Distributors are equipped with a detailed plan of action, Custom Web Portal, and valuable tools, reports, and services through the UnFranchise Management System. Market America provides the products and services, creates the marketing materials, and handles the shipping and distribution.”
Yet, based on the numbers, it is very clear that the large majority of owners are incapable of following said “detailed plan of action” and are clearly failing or at best staying even, either that or they are just buying their own stuff for less, as also has been alluded to by a few purported Unfranchise owners, as Rick says on October 6, 2007. Again, nothing wrong with that, if it’s your expectations going in, but it ain’t the path to riches, either.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (http://grantingersoll.com/2007/08/25/making-money-on-market-america/): I bet I make as much money on MA as a good number of MA owners who are so busy networking, solely off the ads on this site, and I guarantee you I put in at most 2 hours per month (and even that is generous) dealing with comments.
September 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Everyones talking about how networking is a bad thing. open your eyes and realize that all companies and organizations operate on network marketing. All companies are built like a pyrmaid. the difference is you determine your future and not someone else. A traditional business pays you minium wages to build and sell products to make the top guy rich. If your during the work, why don’t you benefit? If you use the products you make why can’t you get you get paid for it as well.
Stop knocking network marketing and support those out their trying to make a difference in their life.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Um, Big G, do the math. Not that many MA owners are getting the benefit.
Also, ever heard of commissions? I suppose if you are talking selling trinkets at Best Buy or Apple, then, sure, you get min. wage and someone else gets rich, but, you can get a job doing something else. Find what you are passionate about, and then figure out a way to make money at it.
I have nothing against networking, success in biz is all about who you know, no doubt. What I have a problem with are companies that claim there is “little to know risk” involved and that you’d have to be stupid not to get rich, when plenty of good people simply don’t.
October 12th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Hello Grant,
I do not understand why you are wasting your time opening up this blog.It is good that you are informing people about something however it would be very smart of yours, if you could check out the bussiness for yourself and evaluate it. Instead, of wasting your time providing baised information about MA which would only benefit people who are vague about this opportunity become more vague, how about letting them evaluate for themselves. You might not be willing to do it,however, there are millions out there who are seriously looking for the right opportunity, and Market America could be the right one. I am a new Unfranchise owner, and I am confident that this business will work for me if I am willing to work because I have seen it, understood it, and I will make this happen.
October 12th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Um, “ma distributor”, did you actually bother to read what I wrote? I never said don’t do MA. Can you tell me my bias? Where is it? Is it in doing the math on the Annual Report?
I just said do the math and check the facts. I’m sure MA will be great for you, no doubt. You’ll probably double the average and maybe make $5K a year. Seriously, download the MA annual report and do the math on what MA pays out per distributor, on average, and then come back to me and tell me I’m being vague. You want vagueness, how about posting what you actually make? Of course, that’s stupid of me to even ask, because there is no way to verify the claims. That’s why I don’t believe you or anyone else claiming to get rich of off MA (although, there are some, I’m sure. For certain, the corporate MA execs are, no doubt about that.) I just look at the self-published MA annual report, run some very conservative numbers and then it ain’t too hard to figure out from there that most people don’t make all that much.
October 14th, 2008 at 10:22 am
My wife and I joined MA for 4 months since May 08. We activated within 3 months and earned our first $300 check. We were excited about this biz, especially after the convention. We bought tickets for Region convention as well as the next year World Convention. Unfortuately, a month ago, we found out more negative about ma. People always say that it is not mlm and don’t need to recruit people for earning money. The truth is you still have to recruit more and more people below you in order to build up strong base for you to secure your commission. Our upline started doing the 90 days fast track and recruited 40 people in one day. Why they doing that becuase to secure the base and more commission for them and higher level. I read ton of articles and how can we get the residual income when the whole market is saturated? People said they can earn the commission from selling the products. It is non-sense since the products are expensive. There is no way you can earn hugh profit from selling, but you paid more than you received.
For example, if your downline on both legs do not active in buying or recruiting, in order for you to receive commission, you need 1200 BV on both legs. Total 2400BV equal $3,600. You have to spend $3,600 to get the $300 check, why??? Beside the 2400bv, you have to make minimum Transfer buying for 100BV if u get the first check already. It is about $200 when check out. What do you get for the month — you paid at least $3,500.00.
Right now, the team encouraged to earn the IBV check. It is crazy again. You only get 1% of every dollar spend for the IBV. For both legs, you need to spend $240,000.00 to get $300.00 check. If I give you 10 downlines on each leg, each downline needs to spend $12,000 in order for you to get $300 check. Most distributors are normal people and they have no money, so they join ma for residual or extra income. Where do they have $12,000 to spend?
I am a Christian and I don’t think putting people down below me and I can move up higher for more money is ethical to me. For that reason, my wife and I are opt out from doing this biz and hope that make more sense for those existing ma distributor. You can earn more money if you treat it as biz without looking moral and ethic issues. Just like JR, Eiz Webber have so many downline people, 180,000. Think about if earch 180,000 spend just little hundred dollars, how much do they earn? I did not count the profit they get from the price of the product they sold to us and they paid to manufacturer. Good luck.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Anyone know what the average life cycle is of an “opportunity”? Amway, Excel, others like this? How many last 15, 20,40 years? Excel went away, what about those representatives income. If MA were sold, or went public what happens? Maybe it is worth a shot only to try to get lucky and have someone in your downline that makes it for you, otherwise it is work and requires effort, like most other jobs except Congress and Bank CEOs.
October 19th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Grant, I want to primarily thank you for this blog..and express how excited I am to have read to the bottom only to find that it is still open. I had thought I was getting some quick information and that was it (what a relief). I have been propositioned for MA, and being a personal trainer, it does make sense to push their product through my business. My main concern would be the fact that I know of better supplements that I take that cost less…and I think that although their products are good, I would not be able to rightfully (for my own profit) tell my clients, or anyone for that matter to buy a product that is not the best (most widely used does not mean the best..its a fact). I have absolutely no problem with the business theory, I built my own business with no problem (yes it is successful, this would be supplemental income). The person who propositioned me is one of my best friends, and we have gone into business before and been successful. My question is to all of the pro MAers out there. Not one of you that were trying to prove Grant wrong (which is not at all what this debate is about, he has never once belittled MA) have given the monthly sales requirements. The only one who did, was someone who agreed with Grant. I am open to opportunity, but my main point would be, as a very educated trainer/nutritionist why should I push products that I know are inferior based one my own personal experience ( I have used MA products throwing off my own cycle for 2 weeks for the sake of a fair comparison for my friend). I do plan on doing MA because the bottom line is it does make sense because commissions come from everywhere, and I know that i can create the client base I need to succeed. I think that in the future of these posts, anyone with a gripe about how valid MA is should be required to post earnings and their created circle that makes them that money (i.e. how many people, monthly B.V., people in downline and their B.V. because lets face it, you can pull those reports up at any time if you are as diligent as the business model says you should be). Thank you for your time..and again Grant, I think this is a very viable topic and I am extremely excited to have this topic still active.
October 21st, 2008 at 6:26 am
Any MA prospect needs to consider 2 things before signing up: 1) Am I able to sign up at least 4 people within a short period of time that will never ever quit their memberships (whether or not they are able to recruit anybody as their own downline) and will keep up with the monthly purchase requirement to maintain their membership & 2) Am I able to find enough non-MA customers, before the end of the first month after signing up, to buy the products that I am required to buy to maintain my membership and level. They need to make sure that they would be able to solve these two questions before signing up so that they would not have the burden/pressure from the purchase requirement and the expiration of the BV accumulated by their downlines.
October 22nd, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I am a former Market America distributor and decided to leave the business when I realized that most of the people around me were running the business like a pyramid scheme.
Market America has some pretty strict requirements when it comes to how many sales you need to make each quarter. If you do not make the required amount of sales you will lose all of the business volume that you accrued during the quarter, and your up-line will lose any business volume that they have earned from you. I have found in my experience that my up-line and up-lines of people around me encouraged people to lie about their sales in order to meet their requirements which means that many distributors were buying hundreds of dollars worth of product each quarter and encouraged to create receipts saying they had sold the product even if they had not done so. As I saw this going on around me I became very morally conflicted with the business and decided that it was not for me.
October 25th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Great blog, Grant! I’ve had some past MLM experience, and came to the same conclusions you have reached,”Do it if you want, but don’t go in blind!”. I believe the phrase “Caveat emptor” applies.
I hope you continue to make mucho dinero from this simple site, and I’ve added some clicks of my own to help out!
November 8th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
I think it’s funny how you admit that you have never been a part of MA; however, you have a pretty solid opinion about it. Why would anyone put their two cents in when they have no clue what they are talking about? Second, why would anyone listen to someone who admits he was never part of a business opportunity, yet has something negative to say about it? That doesn’t make any sense. Get a life.
November 8th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Real simple, Stacey. I sat through the pitch and felt like I was being lied to. The people couldn’t answer basic questions like “How much money did you make last month/year/week?” or “How much of your own product did you buy versus how much did you sell?” Furthermore, I’ve read and posted well over 200 comments (the old post and this new post) from both sides of the coin, and I think I’ve done it in a pretty fair way. Obviously, I lean against MA, but I tell everyone to make their own decisions. Just make sure they know what you are getting into.
So, no, I haven’t been a part of MA officially, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. And, yes, I do have a life. In fact, MA provides me a nice little chunk of spending money thank you very much, and I have never signed a contract with them or bought a single item of theirs in order to meet my quota.
November 10th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
second to Grant. Distributors can have a recognition during presentaions about how much money they have made over 4 week pay cycle, but you don’t know if they are consistent on the same paycheck every cycle. If one who did not have a strong downline, he/she won’t get the check consistently. For the last two months, I stopped all my activities in ma, except the required transfer buying($190). That was the only expense I had over these two months. Before that, I had to pay for the conference, briefing, buying products for selling>actually, hard to sell to make profit. I do have couple preferred customers buying one or two products from me. For the required quarterly form that we need to submit to proof that our purchased products are for selling, not stocking. I found out that since I don’t have any sale for the quarter, how do I file the required form(the sales must be over $200). From this, this is another required expenses we have to make per quarter. That actually forces me to buy products which I don’t need. For these two months, my wife and I are getting back life when stopped all the biz related to ma. Inside MA, no one has life since they have to attend all these meetings days and nights. My uplines are finishing the evening briefing around 11pm and they are still up until 3am for doing something for the team. Where is the life? Think before signing anything.
November 12th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Hi Grant,
Thanks for keeping this open. I found your blog while doing some research on MA. I was at a business meeting today and after the meeting was over I was approached by a woman that had listened to my presentation. She told me how much she liked my presentation and thought that I had a wonderful service. She then said that she had a friend with a business that might work well in conjunction with mine. Another woman in the room heard her say that and asked her what the other business was (these two were obviously friends). Woman #1 immediately clammed up and said something like “oh, it’s nothing really, I don’t know much about it…blah, blah blah”. She seemed embarrassed that her friend had heard here bring it up at all.
So I walked away, put on my coat and left the room. Right on my heals was this women. She again told me she thought her friend’s business would be perfect for me and that it would compliment my services very well. I asked her what it was and she said only that it was a marketing firm and really didn’t know a ton about it since she had really just got involved herself. She told me she had taken one of my business cards in the meeting and would call me later that afternoon to give me more details. Then she said she would probably have her friend call and we would do a three-way (and not the good kind).
I do a lot of training and make a ton of presentations so I get hit by MLM and pyramid